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	<title>Comments on: The liberal case against Dennis Kucinich</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?feed=rss2&#038;p=2850" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850</link>
	<description>Vigilance, Perseverance, Justice</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 03:41:03 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: lewagner</title>
		<link>http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850&#038;cpage=1#comment-2884</link>
		<dc:creator>lewagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850#comment-2884</guid>
		<description>&quot;I don&#039;t even want it.&quot; - The Pope</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t even want it.&#8221; &#8211; The Pope</p>
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		<title>By: Timbuk3</title>
		<link>http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850&#038;cpage=1#comment-2883</link>
		<dc:creator>Timbuk3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850#comment-2883</guid>
		<description>&quot;Forty five seconds? But I want it NOW!&quot; - Homer Simpson</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Forty five seconds? But I want it NOW!&#8221; &#8211; Homer Simpson</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lewagner</title>
		<link>http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850&#038;cpage=1#comment-2882</link>
		<dc:creator>lewagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850#comment-2882</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Is it EVER “OK” to accept “something” rather than “nothing”?

&quot;Prohibition is better than no liquor at all.&quot; - Will Rogers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>>>>>>>>Is it EVER “OK” to accept “something” rather than “nothing”?</p>
<p>&#8220;Prohibition is better than no liquor at all.&#8221; &#8211; Will Rogers</p>
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		<title>By: Timbuk3</title>
		<link>http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850&#038;cpage=1#comment-2881</link>
		<dc:creator>Timbuk3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850#comment-2881</guid>
		<description>Notice: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;I&#039;m not discounting his effort to pull &quot;the center&quot; back toward the center...&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It just seems to me that &quot;we&quot; can&#039;t criticize &quot;Democrats&quot; for &quot;being ineffectual&quot; and simultaneously engage in hero-worship of a do-nothing like Kucinich.

At some point reality intrudes.

Does it ever occur to anyone that maybe some of those &quot;compromises&quot; are distasteful to the people who are making them? Is it EVER &quot;OK&quot; to accept &quot;something&quot; rather than &quot;nothing&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Notice: </p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;I&#8217;m not discounting his effort to pull &#8220;the center&#8221; back toward the center&#8230;&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>It just seems to me that &#8220;we&#8221; can&#8217;t criticize &#8220;Democrats&#8221; for &#8220;being ineffectual&#8221; and simultaneously engage in hero-worship of a do-nothing like Kucinich.</p>
<p>At some point reality intrudes.</p>
<p>Does it ever occur to anyone that maybe some of those &#8220;compromises&#8221; are distasteful to the people who are making them? Is it EVER &#8220;OK&#8221; to accept &#8220;something&#8221; rather than &#8220;nothing&#8221;?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lewagner</title>
		<link>http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850&#038;cpage=1#comment-2880</link>
		<dc:creator>lewagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850#comment-2880</guid>
		<description>Would the results have been any better if NO one in Congress had aimed for the bulls-eye?
My dad got pissed off at me back about 1970-something, &quot;You&#039;re right, son. If you aim at the bulls-eye, you&#039;re not likely to hit it, exactly. So, what are you gonna aim at instead???&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would the results have been any better if NO one in Congress had aimed for the bulls-eye?<br />
My dad got pissed off at me back about 1970-something, &#8220;You&#8217;re right, son. If you aim at the bulls-eye, you&#8217;re not likely to hit it, exactly. So, what are you gonna aim at instead???&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Timbuk3</title>
		<link>http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850&#038;cpage=1#comment-2879</link>
		<dc:creator>Timbuk3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850#comment-2879</guid>
		<description>&quot;Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.&quot; - Sun Tzu, 6th century BC

&quot;In the actions of all men, and especially those of Princes... one looks at the result.&quot; - Niccoló Machiavelli, The Prince. 1537</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.&#8221; &#8211; Sun Tzu, 6th century BC</p>
<p>&#8220;In the actions of all men, and especially those of Princes&#8230; one looks at the result.&#8221; &#8211; Niccoló Machiavelli, The Prince. 1537</p>
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		<title>By: icy</title>
		<link>http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850&#038;cpage=1#comment-2878</link>
		<dc:creator>icy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 07:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850#comment-2878</guid>
		<description>&quot;If you don&#039;t stand for something, you&#039;ll fall for anything&quot;

--Malcolm X</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If you don&#8217;t stand for something, you&#8217;ll fall for anything&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8211;Malcolm X</p>
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		<title>By: Timbuk3</title>
		<link>http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850&#038;cpage=1#comment-2877</link>
		<dc:creator>Timbuk3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 06:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850#comment-2877</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t worry about it too much. He&#039;ll be re-elected, and he&#039;ll never be President.

I posted this for 2 reasons, both of which are based on my perception that &quot;the left&quot; has no sense of reality. We can&#039;t duplicate what Bush and the GOP did, jamming bad (or good) legislation up America&#039;s ass for the next few years.

1) Bush (and Reagan) steered us into an iceberg field in the North Atlantic while simultaneously weakening the hull.

I&#039;m not all that fond of Kucinich taking the helm, as his &quot;solution&quot; is &quot;close your eyes, yank the wheel as hard as you can to the left, and hit the throttle.&quot; We&#039;re in the MIDDLE Of that iceberg field, not on the edge of it. I&#039;d sort of like the captain to steer between the icebergs, for a while. Maybe play some soothing music while he reassures us over the intercom that we&#039;re gonna be alright, eventually.

That LAST thing I want to feel is the ship lurching or listing.

If you don&#039;t get the analogy, let me boil it. We&#039;re in a heap of shit. Getting out of it&#039;s going to take some work. There will be nail biting moments. &quot;Course adjustment&quot;, if you will, is going to be necessary if we don&#039;t want to sink to the bottom.

2) Try electing a Kucinich in a blue dog&#039;s district. Much less a &quot;red state&quot;.

I&#039;m getting &quot;outrage fatigue&quot; and more than a little tired of &quot;I want it now!&quot;

We&#039;ve got to win the &quot;war on words&quot; before we&#039;ll ever win the war on liberals. Right now, the very LANGUAGE is working against us. &quot;Liberal&quot; is to &quot;socialist&quot; as &quot;Republican&quot; is to &quot;patriot&quot;.

We&#039;ve got to give those &quot;red staters&quot; a way to tell their neighbors &quot;yeah, I voted for the liberal, and I&#039;m proud of it&quot; before we&#039;ll make any gains in some areas.

In the mean time, we&#039;re stuck with the population break down. Red states have inordinate control of the Senate. It&#039;s not &quot;fair&quot;, but it&#039;s &quot;constitutional&quot;. So the key isn&#039;t stomping them, it&#039;s winning them over from &quot;the dark side&quot;.

And trust me, buddy, I&#039;m not thrilled with the Democrats&#039; performance, or the health care reform bill as it stands, my self.

But, and this comes from personal experience, it&#039;s not reasonable to expect to undo &lt;del&gt;8&lt;/del&gt; &lt;del&gt;16&lt;/del&gt; 30 years of bad management in a year or two.

Here&#039;s the way I see it. The Democrats are going to lose seats in 2010. Most of them will be in &quot;blue dog&quot; districts. It&#039;s honestly hard to see beyond that, but if the Democrats prove they can EFFECTIVELY govern we could see some of those &quot;blue dog&quot; districts swing to &quot;blue&quot;, and elect actual &quot;liberals&quot;/&quot;progressives&quot; in a few years.

What we see as a &quot;sell out&quot;, now could be a game of chess with a LONG TERM strategy.

Or, we could be well and truly fucked. If we can&#039;t swing the Democrats further left, the only alternative is to let the right wing win by joining the &quot;government is dysfunctional&quot; crowd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t worry about it too much. He&#8217;ll be re-elected, and he&#8217;ll never be President.</p>
<p>I posted this for 2 reasons, both of which are based on my perception that &#8220;the left&#8221; has no sense of reality. We can&#8217;t duplicate what Bush and the GOP did, jamming bad (or good) legislation up America&#8217;s ass for the next few years.</p>
<p>1) Bush (and Reagan) steered us into an iceberg field in the North Atlantic while simultaneously weakening the hull.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not all that fond of Kucinich taking the helm, as his &#8220;solution&#8221; is &#8220;close your eyes, yank the wheel as hard as you can to the left, and hit the throttle.&#8221; We&#8217;re in the MIDDLE Of that iceberg field, not on the edge of it. I&#8217;d sort of like the captain to steer between the icebergs, for a while. Maybe play some soothing music while he reassures us over the intercom that we&#8217;re gonna be alright, eventually.</p>
<p>That LAST thing I want to feel is the ship lurching or listing.</p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t get the analogy, let me boil it. We&#8217;re in a heap of shit. Getting out of it&#8217;s going to take some work. There will be nail biting moments. &#8220;Course adjustment&#8221;, if you will, is going to be necessary if we don&#8217;t want to sink to the bottom.</p>
<p>2) Try electing a Kucinich in a blue dog&#8217;s district. Much less a &#8220;red state&#8221;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m getting &#8220;outrage fatigue&#8221; and more than a little tired of &#8220;I want it now!&#8221;</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve got to win the &#8220;war on words&#8221; before we&#8217;ll ever win the war on liberals. Right now, the very LANGUAGE is working against us. &#8220;Liberal&#8221; is to &#8220;socialist&#8221; as &#8220;Republican&#8221; is to &#8220;patriot&#8221;.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve got to give those &#8220;red staters&#8221; a way to tell their neighbors &#8220;yeah, I voted for the liberal, and I&#8217;m proud of it&#8221; before we&#8217;ll make any gains in some areas.</p>
<p>In the mean time, we&#8217;re stuck with the population break down. Red states have inordinate control of the Senate. It&#8217;s not &#8220;fair&#8221;, but it&#8217;s &#8220;constitutional&#8221;. So the key isn&#8217;t stomping them, it&#8217;s winning them over from &#8220;the dark side&#8221;.</p>
<p>And trust me, buddy, I&#8217;m not thrilled with the Democrats&#8217; performance, or the health care reform bill as it stands, my self.</p>
<p>But, and this comes from personal experience, it&#8217;s not reasonable to expect to undo <del>8</del> <del>16</del> 30 years of bad management in a year or two.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the way I see it. The Democrats are going to lose seats in 2010. Most of them will be in &#8220;blue dog&#8221; districts. It&#8217;s honestly hard to see beyond that, but if the Democrats prove they can EFFECTIVELY govern we could see some of those &#8220;blue dog&#8221; districts swing to &#8220;blue&#8221;, and elect actual &#8220;liberals&#8221;/&#8221;progressives&#8221; in a few years.</p>
<p>What we see as a &#8220;sell out&#8221;, now could be a game of chess with a LONG TERM strategy.</p>
<p>Or, we could be well and truly fucked. If we can&#8217;t swing the Democrats further left, the only alternative is to let the right wing win by joining the &#8220;government is dysfunctional&#8221; crowd.</p>
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		<title>By: icy</title>
		<link>http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850&#038;cpage=1#comment-2876</link>
		<dc:creator>icy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 05:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850#comment-2876</guid>
		<description>“I’m right and everyone else is wrong” doesn’t work when you need (at least) a majority to get anything done in this country.&quot;


Tell it to the Democrat-orchestrated smear campaign against Kucinich.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“I’m right and everyone else is wrong” doesn’t work when you need (at least) a majority to get anything done in this country.&#8221;</p>
<p>Tell it to the Democrat-orchestrated smear campaign against Kucinich.</p>
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		<title>By: Timbuk3</title>
		<link>http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850&#038;cpage=1#comment-2875</link>
		<dc:creator>Timbuk3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 05:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbuk3.com/discuss/?p=2850#comment-2875</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&quot;How the fxck is it a mark against Kucinich’s record...?&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

C&#039;mon, Icy.

His record is what he&#039;s ACCOMPLISHED, not what he wishes for.

I&#039;m not discounting his effort to pull &quot;the center&quot; back toward the center, but is proposing legislation that no one believes will pass a &quot;record of success&quot;? Does it make him an &quot;effective legislator&quot;?

&quot;I&#039;m right and everyone else is wrong&quot; doesn&#039;t work when you need (at least) a majority to get anything done in this country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;How the fxck is it a mark against Kucinich’s record&#8230;?&#8221;</em></p>
<p>C&#8217;mon, Icy.</p>
<p>His record is what he&#8217;s ACCOMPLISHED, not what he wishes for.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not discounting his effort to pull &#8220;the center&#8221; back toward the center, but is proposing legislation that no one believes will pass a &#8220;record of success&#8221;? Does it make him an &#8220;effective legislator&#8221;?</p>
<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m right and everyone else is wrong&#8221; doesn&#8217;t work when you need (at least) a majority to get anything done in this country.</p>
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