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There is no way that Iran will ever cooperate or negotiate. War is inevitable.
We’ve been in the Neville Chamberlain “war is coming no matter what but we’re in denial” phase for more than a year already.
Actually, Neville Chamberlain gets an unjustified bad rap for that, as I’m sure Alvy would chip in if he saw my post. He was not fooled by the possibility of peace with Germany, but rather he realized that England was so weak that they’d fall with little fight, so he appeased Germany to stall the start of the war while he desperately built up England’s forces to a level where they could resist Germany.
However, while the “in denial of the coming war” thing is not really fair to pin on Neville Chamberlain, it is a good description of our current situation. Our last chance to avoid war is long past.
In once sense, it’s about time. It was unacceptable for Iran to hold our people hostage in 1979. It was unacceptable for Iran to blow up our Marines in Beirut in the 1980s. It was unacceptable for Iran to have Libya blow up the plane over Lockerbie. It was unacceptable for Iran to blow up our soldiers in Saudi Arabia in the 1990s.
I don’t actually hate Iran (I hate Italy so I know what it feels like to hate a country), but whatever happens to them, they’ve been asking for it for a long time.
Speaking of Alvy, I haven’t seen him post for awhile. Is he all right? Just taking a break from the board for awhile??
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I just think “The Bombardment of Iran Looms” is, to be kind, “a bit of an over-statement”. Given that the author is a member of the CFR, I’m not all that inclined to agree with the more war-like statements made, and even if I allow them to be true the article is a long ways from a definitive statement of intent to wage another stupid war.
What I read, instead, is that the current government of Israel is batshit fucking insane, and we fear what they’ll do with the massive infusion of military cash we give them every year. Since the political climate, here, is one of “Israel can do no wrong” EVEN IF they do something batshit fucking insane (like start nuking Iran), we’re looking for a way to defuse THEM even as we recognize that Iran is currently intractable.
This is not to say I think “we” want Iran to have nuke-ya-ler weapons. Again, politically, that’s a loser here. But since sane people are currently in charge of who we go to war with, and when, I believe that war with Iran is truly a last resort. This is unlike when the man with no pulse was in charge.
I also think Russia, and probably China, are more likely to help with sanctions, and the people of Iran are getting tired of the idiots in charge of their government placing their lives at risk. It’s not impossible that we’ll see a regime change, or at least a change in attitude, in Iran in the near future. That would be infinitely preferable to nation building in yet another middle eastern country.
I don’t know why a lot of people aren’t posting, any more. Peen hasn’t been around for a few weeks, whatta and timandcir for a few months. I do know that I prefer no traffic here, at all, to being expected to provide a space for inane statements like “we have an utter hypocrite and liar in the white house”. The reality is, such statements were true and appropriate when Bush was in the WH and the GOP controlled congress, but it’s aggravating when utter hypocrites and liars repeatedly contend that Obama and the progressive Democrats wouldn’t be doing far more than they are if it weren’t for the new GOP requirement that ANY action in the Senate requires more votes than the Democrats have.
I”d like to see the Democrats retain control of both houses, and change the rules to make it harder for the GOP to filibuster and block progress, in 2010. I don’t see “I want my pony NOW” as a productive way to get what we want. Ever.
Purity tests are for teabaggers, not liberals or progressives. Nader sucks. Kucinich lost for a reason. It’s still time to live in reality.
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There is no chance that Israel will nuke Iran. A conventional strike is all that is needed to destroy Iran’s nuclear facilities. Iran’s bunkers are a bad joke. Or maybe that should be good joke. It’s pretty funny. They just don’t get the concept. Even when they build a bunker in a mountain, all they do is make a cut-n-cover site on the side of the mountain.
We are not going to see a revolution, or a change in attitude, from Iran. Bombing is a last resort, but we’re there. It’s the only viable option left. It’s just a matter of time before Obama is forced to reach the same conclusion.
I doubt we’ll invade on the ground and need to do nation building. More likely we’ll just blow up their nuclear facilities and go home.
The attacks on Bush were just as unfair as the attacks on Obama, but I hope Pelosi remains Speaker. I am very grateful to her for standing up to Obama on assault weapons.
The filibuster is an important part of our democracy. We’ll do ourselves a disservice if we eliminate it.
I guess I come and go for weeks at a time too, without announcing (or even planning) it.
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“Bombing is a last resort, but we’re there.”
I disagree, and thankfully (so far) my government agrees with me.
“The attacks on Bush were just as unfair as the attacks on Obama, but I hope Pelosi remains Speaker. I am very grateful to her for standing up to Obama on assault weapons.”
I’m not sure what “attacks on Bush” you refer to, but he was a horrible President. “Obama on assault weapons” is nonsense.
“The filibuster is an important part of our democracy. We’ll do ourselves a disservice if we eliminate it.”
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I’m more than bothered by the indisputable fact that a minority of people in “net tax recipient” states hold an inordinate amount of power in the Senate. It’s just that I don’t have a “perfect solution” to this unfair imbalance of power, yet. At the very least, the Senate (as it’s currently elected) ensures that we don’t live in a democracy where everyone’s vote is counted equally. Living in a populated state gives you a “Dred Scott, 3/5 of a person” feeling.
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I disagree, and thankfully (so far) my government agrees with me.
Maybe I’m the only one who can see it right now. But Iran isn’t going to give us any choices other than “go to war” or “let them build nuclear weapons and conquer our allies”.
I’m not sure what “attacks on Bush” you refer to, but he was a horrible President.
He wasn’t that bad. If it wasn’t for his Supreme Court nominees, we wouldn’t have gotten the court to recognize that the Second Amendment covers guns for self defense.
“Obama on assault weapons” is nonsense.
When Obama campaigned for the Senate, one of his campaign promises was to pass a federal law that would strip state governments of the ability to issue concealed weapons permits to anyone other than police and ex-police.
That didn’t see the light of day once he got to the Senate, but Obama did vote for a bill that would have banned all military surplus and mil-spec ammo for all the common assault rifle calibers. It didn’t pass, fortunately.
When he got to the White House, one of the first things he and his attorney general did was start pushing for a new ban on assault weapons. However Pelosi was quick to bring those plans to a screeching halt.
I’m pretty sure that you were the one who showed me how Pelosi was defending our freedom when I posted a link about the attempt at a new ban.
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Keeping in mind that I think that:
A) The second amendment covers all “infantry” weapons, and
B) The NRA isn’t a good representative, for meWhat has Obama or Holder done to roll back our second amendment rights?
NOT when he was a state or US senator.
Since he became POTUS.
“Eternal vigilance” is fine, but accusations of threats that don’t exist bother me.
And, BTW, I think the Democrats are at least smart enough to know they have enough problems in November without re-opening the assault weapons ban wound. Yeah, I know there are some real idiots in the Democratic caucus, but I think they’re quickly shouted down on all sides on this particular issue.
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What has Obama or Holder done to roll back our second amendment rights?
NOT when he was a state or US senator.
Since he became POTUS.
Obama and Holder started talking about bringing back the ban on assault weapons as soon as they entered the White House.
Pelosi brought all that talk to a screeching halt, so it isn’t really something they’ve “done”. But it is something they were going to do until Pelosi stopped them.
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…it isn’t really something they’ve “done”.
IOW, it’s a conspiracy theory.
Uzi, I think you know I’m a staunch defender of ALL of the bill of rights.
Let’s worry about real things. There are more than enough of them to go around.
What do you think of the GOP complaining about the deficit while defending the biggest contributor to the deficit, the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy? How do you like the poll showing that the teabaggers are really just a way for the GOP to fire up the bat-shit crazy wing of their base without being honest about their actual agenda (keeping the bus in the ditch and careening to the cliff)? How does it look in MI now that NV has passed you in joblessness? What do you think of the corps using the recession to purge the baby boomers from their payrolls, and what are the implications of age discrimination in re-hiring them on social security?
Seriously, if Obama/Holder OR ANYONE ELSE goes after our (second amendment) rights, we’re allies, but it doesn’t even seem to be on the radar. The NRA is just stirring up shit to bring in money.
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IOW, it’s a conspiracy theory.
No, it is something they attempted to do. They failed in the attempt, thanks largely to Nancy Pelosi, but they really did make the attempt.
What do you think of the GOP complaining about the deficit while defending the biggest contributor to the deficit, the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy?
It’s a matter of perspective whether the deficit is caused by “too much spending” or “too few taxes”, but I favor more spending and more taxes.
We need more military spending in addition to more domestic spending.
How do you like the poll showing that the teabaggers are really just a way for the GOP to fire up the bat-shit crazy wing of their base without being honest about their actual agenda (keeping the bus in the ditch and careening to the cliff)?
The tea party movement is not the creation of the GOP. It is the GOP base, but it’s coming from the grass roots.
How does it look in MI now that NV has passed you in joblessness?
I mentioned some years back my relief because my dad’s job was shipped off to China without him (I was terrified that they’d make him start flying to China regularly, as they had been doing some of the other engineers, and I *DON’T* like him being on airplanes). After his unemployment ran out he was able to qualify for some federal career reeducation program and spent two years taking college classes. After that ran out, the extended unemployment benefits kicked in because of the financial crash and big recession. He finally stopped qualifying for the extended unemployment this spring. This fall he turns 62, and with no job in sight, he’s just going to start on Social Security.
I’m *really* glad they don’t make him fly on airplanes anymore.
What do you think of the corps using the recession to purge the baby boomers from their payrolls, and what are the implications of age discrimination in re-hiring them on social security?
I don’t know anything about that, but I’ll be pissed if some job puts my dad back on an airplane again.
Seriously, if Obama/Holder OR ANYONE ELSE goes after our (second amendment) rights, we’re allies, but it doesn’t even seem to be on the radar. The NRA is just stirring up shit to bring in money.
It’s not on the radar because Nancy Pelosi is protecting us.
But this has nothing to do with the NRA. This really was something Obama planned to do until Pelosi put a stop to it.
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(Nesting limit reached)
I like the way you defend Pelosi.
But this isn’t correct:
It’s a matter of perspective whether the deficit is caused by “too much spending” or “too few taxes”, but I favor more spending and more taxes.
It’s not “a matter of perspective”. Again, I’m glad you and I agree that we need more spending and more taxes, but there is NO QUESTION that the Bush tax cuts are, by a large margin, the cause of the deficit. We shouldn’t ever give any credence to the bogus meme that tax cuts for the wealthy are in any way good for the USA.
I don’t have a link handy, but can find it if you’re interested. The two biggest causes of the deficit are, first the Bush tax cuts and second the wars. Third, IIRC, is interest payments, and we should never forget that we still have debt from WWII on the books. Wars aren’t good for the economy, either. That’s a myth that needs to be busted.
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It also seems like there was some treaty Obama wanted to sign that would have violated gun rights somehow. I’d completely forgotten about it, and can’t quite remember what it would have done. I’ll try to look that up.
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Here is the treaty:
http://www.oas.org/juridico/english/treaties/a-63.html
It would require all ammo to be manufactured by licensed manufacturers, which would make it illegal to handload your own ammo.
Not sure if signing the treaty would have been a Constitutional violation, but it was certainly something worth opposing.
As with the assault weapons thing, Obama was forced to drop it, but it is something he wanted to do.
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“Obama was forced to drop it, but it is something he wanted to do.”
I’m OK with “eternal vigilance is the price of freedom”, and I appreciate when someone tells me of something that’s actually being done to violate my rights, but this just isn’t it.
Having said that, that treaty isn’t something I want signed by the US. Frankly, if there’s that big a need to save money, we should look at disbanding the ATF. NO ONE likes them.
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I do know that I prefer no traffic here, at all, to being expected to provide a space for inane statements like “we have an utter hypocrite and liar in the white house”.
You and Alvy have an “idealist vs pragmatist” dispute. You’re the pragmatist and Alvy is the idealist.
Both sorts are necessary. The pragmatists work out what can be done, and they do as much as is possible to do. The idealists provide the relentless call to action that prevents the pragmatists from becoming complacent.
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I appreciate the spirit in which your comment is offered, but, you’re speaking in generalities. I, personally, don’t need to be pushed.
My question to the idealists, who’s primary goal seems to be to sit on the sidelines and criticize those who are doing actual work, is “who do you think you’ll be electing POTUS in 2012?” Your choices will be:
A) Obama, or
B) Some bat-fuck insane, corps-before-people, religious fundamentalist Republican.Assuming, of course, Obama doesn’t decide “I’m tired of you lazy fuckers sitting on the sidelines throwing spitballs, too self-important to do any actual work” and quitting.
I’m not taking a shot at you, uzi. But, I haven’t changed my mind in the slightest. I can differentiate between constructive criticism and infantile whining.
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That would be wrong. They are our ally and they need our help.
It would also be counterproductive, if our goal is peace, as a weaker Israel would have to be more proactive about keeping their neighbors beaten down.
It would also likely lead to an eventual tactical nuclear war. Israel seems to have acquired some American designs for an atomic artillery shell, and if Israel were ever faced with being overrun by an invading army, we’d almost certainly see a few hundred of those shells fired off.
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They are not my ally and I don’t want my tax dollars going to them until they grew up and fly right.
I don’t support countries who bully others, including my own. And Israel is a huge bully.
AND I will not forgive them for their spies in the Pentagon and CIA. Their spying needs to stop now.-
I’ve never claimed to have a solution, and I’m not not, but I don’t like Israel for the reason you just stated. They’re bullies, and I always pull for the underdog. Well, except for al Qaeda. I’m OK with Uzi’s “ruthless extermination” in their case. I just don’t think “militarily” is the best AND ONLY way to do it. We need friends in the middle east, besides Israel, to tamp down the extremists.
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Israel isn’t a bully. They just defend themselves when people attack them.
And in this case, the underdog (the Palestinians) is refusing to make peace and always tries to murder children whenever they can.
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The Palestinians are stabbing Israel with a pencil.
If it was up to me, I’d relocate the Israelis and the Palestinians, both, and use nukes to turn “the Holy land” into a radioactive sheet of glass unfit for human habitation for the next 1,000 years.
Religious fanatics scare the shit out of me.
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The Palestinians are stabbing Israel with a pencil.
The Palestinians used to target children with suicide bombers.
When Israel built a wall to keep suicide bombers out, the Palestinians started shelling Israeli towns with rocket artillery.
The blockade has dramatically curtailed this shelling, but the only thing that is preventing more murders is the wall and the blockade.
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And the Palestinians refuse to let Israel kill them too.
I don’t trust Israel. And this has nothing at all to do with religion. It has to do with spies and nukes and lies.
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Israel isn’t trying to kill the Palestinians, except for when they are defending themselves from Palestinian aggression.
All countries spy and lie. I don’t see any way that Israel is any worse than normal in this respect.
What’s wrong with Israel’s nukes?
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Are we seeing more cooked intelligence to garner public support of another illegal invasion and occupation?
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I always expect that intel is cooked.
Have you seen the reports that there are leaks in the seafloor since the out of control well was capped? I’m suspicious as hell about that. For one thing, everyone who lives along the Gulf knows that the sea floor “naturally” leaks. So who’s going to benefit by these reports?
I know it will “make sense” for BP to start siphoning oil, again.
Of all the industries in all the word, the one I trust least is the oil industry. It’s no wonder that the two “oil men”, Bush and Cheney, were the most corrupt, evil, intentionally incompetent when it suited them and diabolically effective when it was necessary to hurt the common man, in this country’s history.
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There isn’t likely to be any invasion or occupation (and certainly not an illegal one).
This is going to be more like an intense bombardment of Iran for a few weeks and then everyone goes home.
If Israel does it, it will be more like a pinpoint attack that just destroys the main nuclear sites, and the bombardment will probably be over in one day.
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But this isn’t correct:
It’s a matter of perspective whether the deficit is caused by “too much spending” or “too few taxes”, but I favor more spending and more taxes.
It’s not “a matter of perspective”. Again, I’m glad you and I agree that we need more spending and more taxes, but there is NO QUESTION that the Bush tax cuts are, by a large margin, the cause of the deficit.
There is another perspective. Many on the right would say the cause of the debt was all the social spending. If we stripped away much of the country’s social spending, the debt could be eliminated without raising taxes.
It isn’t how I’d like to do things. But it would be a way to eliminate the deficit.
What we really need is a European-style VAT tax. It would be a bit regressive, but it is a lot harder for special interest groups to oppose than taxes that people actually see themselves paying.
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This country cannot tolerate another war. Let Iran have their nukes. Everyone else has them.
Israel has them and they are far more dangerous than Iran.
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And why was it that the other PM in Israel stepped down? Pedophilia? Got caught with his pants down or something?
And those Israeli spies in the Pentagon.
And didn’t they find that the trading on the airlines just prior to 9-11 came from Israel?No danger to anyone? Come on.
Looks like their rabbis have some problems with this too.
While I am not anti-Semetic, I resent Christians and Jews alike, I do not care at all for the state of Israel.
I don’t believe Iran is a danger, no more so than Israel.
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And didn’t they find that the trading on the airlines just prior to 9-11 came from Israel?
There was no unusual trading on the airlines to begin with.
I don’t believe Iran is a danger, no more so than Israel.
You are wrong. Ignoring the threat posed by Iran will end in our destruction.
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I deleted and reposted my message so it would be attached to the message I was replying to — I recall there was some question before about whether deleted messages were legitimately deleted. In the case of my message here, it’s legitimate.
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Thanks for clarifying, uzi. Of course, anyone is free to delete their own messages. The only time I recall someone deleting another person’s messages was when Alvy deleted some of Amber’s messages. Amber hasn’t been back, since, possibly because I didn’t ban Alvy at the time. That’s why I wanted to clear it up for everyone; deleting someone else’s message is an instantly bannable offense.
I may, personally, ban a message, but you’d really have to cross a line for that to happen. For example, a clearly illegal threat against a public official, or incitement of violence that might draw the attention of the SS. I don’t need that kind of grief.
So, thanks again for clarifying but you’re well within your right to control your own words here.
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